29
Jan
09

503 – Jughead

503-charlotte-miles-daniel-richard-hostiles-01

Review:

I’m trying my hardest not to be bitter about this episode.  It destroyed my two favorite theories (maybe).  If everything in this episode is to be taken at face value then Jacob is not Horace Goodspeed, and Daniel is not Charlotte’s father.  [sigh]

This episode centers mostly around Charles Widmore (notice, correct spelling of his name).  We see that he has effected more than we ever could have guessed (I presume).  He was on the island as a young man, and he was funding Daniel’s research, he also had connections to Daniel’s mother, who I believe is Ms. Hawking ans also the Ellie that we see in this episode.

This episode has a lot of Other/Hostile goodness.  We get to see Richard in what looks like a leadership role, but he insists that he isn’t at the top of the ladder.  We find out that all the people that we saw in The Lie were Hostiles.  What is conspicuously missing from this episode is the Dharma Initiative.  But in there place were other island intruders, this time it was the American government.  They were trying to test a hydrogen bomb on The Island, this seems almost tame compared to most of the mystrious intentions that people bring to the island.  It’s intensely interesting to watch The Hostiles back then, and I’m sure that seeing Widmore and Ellie (Ms. Hawking) back then was important.

Off the island Desmond and Penny have an unexepcted (for me) child.  They name him Charlie (cute at first, then strange after you think about it for a second).  Desmond tries to fulfill Daniel’s request to find his mother.  He finds out that Daniel was actually a mad scientist (shocking, I know) and that he left a woman unstuck in time.  He also met with Charles Widmore who told him to continue on to L.A. to find Faraday’s mother (1 huge clue towards Ms. Hawking).

For the reasons mentioned at the beginning I want to give this episode a low score, but this episode is chock full of info and I’m really enjoyingthe time travelling tour of the island’s history.  I also especially enjoyed Desmond’s story and the lack of Kate, Jack, Sayid and Hurley and their terribly depressing, unmotivated lives.

What I didn’t like about this episode was the need for a bomb and the inclusion of the American Army, I don’t see the point of those two things.  But I guess they needed some sort of danger.

8.0/10.0

503-daniel-woman-01Character Impressions:

Daniel

-“You just couldn’t stay away could you.”  Why do the writers feel the need to mislead me?  That was so obviously supposed to be interpreted as her recognizing Daniel.

-Check out Daniel’s wig in that picture of him.  It’s crazy huge (during his B-52s faze).

503-daniel-01-Daniel’s suddenly a good liar, he’s getting all aggressive towards Richard, playing the part of the military scientist.

-Whoa, Daniel’s quite the cold-hearted bastard.  He apparently left that woman unstuck in time.  My question is, how did she not die?

-I know I’m really grasping at straws here but when Ellie mentions Daniel professing his love for Charlotte she calls him a Romeo, he says, “far from it, believe me.”  He could be saying that because he doesn’t love her.  But I’m pretty sure that my theory is essentially destroyed.

503-daniel-jughead-01-I don’t think that the bomb was necessary.  The story could have continued without it.  I wonder if there is a hydrogen bomb somewhere on the island, buried or something.

-What was Daniel’s relationship with that woman?  That picture implies a relationship.  Were they romantically involved?  That’s what it looks like.  Why didn’t she find a Constant for her?  That was a very strange story.  If it was meant to promote dislike of him it didn’t work on me, I don’t think we know the whole story.

503-richard-daniel-ellie-widmore-01Richard

-Mystery solved, Richard has lived on the island forever.  For all intents and purposes (is that right?) Richard can and will live forever.  I still don’t understand why he isn’t the leader of The Others.  Why would he ever let someone like Ben or Locke push him around.

-Richard talks about the US Army as if it’s Dharma, I wonder what the difference is.  Did the Army start Dharma, or were those military tests nothing more that bomb tests?  I’m going to go with bomb tests, that makes more sense to me.

503-richard-locke-01-Richard was forced by someone, Jacob I presume, to kill the military team.

-Locke hopes that Richard can tell him how to stop the time travelling or save everyone, I don’t think he could have.  The entire purpose of Locke seeing him in this episode was to set up Richard’s meeting with Locke as a child and as a baby.  Although Richard does say that the way off the island is classified info.  I wonder if he could have pointed Locke in the right direction.

Desmond

503-desmond-01-So Desmond and Penny have a child.  That was a strange reveal.  This complicates things a lot.  Now it will be even more tragic if Ben does kill Penny.

-Desmond says, “why in gods name would I want to go back there (The Island)?”  I was hoping that he would think that the island was some kind of refuge.

-Desmond couldn’t remember the year that he visited Daniel in The Constant.  I would suspect that that would be ingrained quite firmly in his memories.  Then again, perhaps I should remember the year too, but I don’t.

-I thought that the unstuck-in-time girl’s sister was leading Desmond into a trap.

503-charlie-2-desmond-01-Desmond should have empathized with that girl.  He went through almost the same thing with Daniel, except Daniel solved his problem.

-Why couldn’t Desmond just listen to Charles when he had that very good idea to keep Penny away from danger.

-Skip to the bottom for important Desmond/Ms. Hawking/Mr. Widmore presumptions.

Penny

503-penny-01-So Desmond and Penny named their incredibly cute child Charlie.  Did they forget that Penny’s potentially evil father’s name is Charles?  Surely they don’t want to be reminded of him.  I know, I know, that’s not what they were intending but it had to be said.  (BTW, I’m calling this Charlie, Charlie 2.)
(On a side note, I just notices that a lot of my TV shows have characters named Charles, or some derivative.  Think about it, Chuck has Chuck, Pushing Daisies has Chuck, Life has Charlie, Fringe has a Charlie, It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia Charlie, and now Lost has two Charlies and a Charles.  It seemed strange at first, but now that I think about it, I might just be noticing this simply because of the sheer volume of TV that I watch.)

-Penny seems to fear one thing in the world, her father.  She’s hiding from him, not Ben.

Mr. Widmore

503-mr-widmore-02-“Jones,” bah.  “Tricksy Hobbits”.  Seriously, that was very clever misdirection.  I wasn’t even suspecting that Jones was Widmore.  Did anyone here see that coming?

-So Widmore was pretty evil when he was young, he was willing to kill his friend for almost no reason.  I guess that could have been Other thinking though.

-Locke and Sawyer couldn’t have shot Widmore no matter what.  Therefore I am choosing to ignore that whole argument about Locke not shooting him.  It seemed ridiculous when I first saw it, but I doubt they could have hurt him anyways so the discussion is moot.

503-mr-widmore-01-Widmore implies in this episode that he knows the island better than anyone else.  That’s pretty presumptuous of him.  Almost as presumptive as Widmore saying that the island is his.

-I wonder how high up the Other hierarchy Charles Widmore climbed.  It seems like Richard didn’t have any confidence in him, but then again he didn’t have much confidence in either Ben or Locke at times either.

-Widmore seemed completely honest when he asked whether Penny was safe.  I think Desmond should have answered him, it couldn’t have hurt.

-Charles Widmore was funding Daniel’s research into mental time travel.  I wonder why, did Mr. Widmore desire to go back for some reason?  Did he think he could change something?  I would suspect that Ms. Hawking or Daniel would disabuse him of that idea as soon as it came into his mind.

503-ellie-01Ellie

-In case you don’t know, Ellie is the Other dressed like Rousseau, with the strange hair.

-The first time I watched this show I suspected that Ellie was Penny’s mom, but as I rewatched parts of it to write this revlysis I began to suspect that she is Ms. Hawking (I got her name right this time).  If you watch again it really seems like the actress is doing her best Ms. Hawking impression.  And Daniel did say they he recognized her.

503-ellie-02-So if Ellie is Daniel’s mother then wouldn’t it have been pretty dangerous, future-wise, for those two to interact?  I guess ‘dangerous’ is the wrong word, ‘impossible’ works better.

-Here’s another idea, what if Ellie is Charlotte’s mother.   It would explain her mention of Charlotte to Daniel.  I doubt that though, I’m going to stick with Ms. Hawking.

Juliet

503-others-widmore-juliet-01

-I think it’s awesome that The Others speak Latin.  I know it doesn’t matter but I still think it’s great.

-I wonder what Widmore and his friend thought of Juliet, it must have been obvious that she was an Other, with the Latin thing and all and her familiarity with the island.  I guess he could have though it was all just a big hoax, or a trap.

-I think we were supposed to see the significance of Juliet choosing to go with Sawyer instead of Locke.  If she had chosen Locke then it would have proved that she was still an Other at heart.  It’s a pretty repetitive realization, but the writers continue to emphasize it in case we still doubt her devotions.

503-miles-01

Miles

-Those redshirts with Miles and the group were way too obvious.  And why didn’t Miles warn those too guys earlier?  He kinda thought about it for a while.

-Miles did some good Ghost Whispering in this episode, it’s nice to see that he’s useful.

Charlotte

503-daniel-charlotte-011-So while Miles is making himself useful by sensing dead American soldiers, Charlotte still hasn’t done any good archeological work yet.  I think this lack of usefulness is good for her health.  In other words, I doubt she’s going to die before she get’s a chance to investigate some of the island ruins.

-As for Charlotte’s nose bleed, it certainly scared me, but I don’t think she’s in any real danger.  I figured that someone would get into trouble because of the time traveling, I thought that it would be Locke, but Charlotte works too.

Sawyer

503-sawyer-01

-It did seem like a bad idea when Sawyer said “meet at the creek”.  I assumed that we were meant to overlook that so that the story could continue.

-Sawyer is being very heroic in this episode, choosing to save Daniel, only because he’s part of the team.  He no other motivation for saving him except because he cares.  I guess he also trusts him to find a way to stop the skipping, but that’s not a terribly good reason.

-Whadya know, Sawyer is a man of science.  He chose to go with Daniel, “the guy who’s really going to save us”, instead of Locke and Richard.

503-locke-juliet-01Locke

-Locke wasn’t able to tell Sawyer and Juliet that Ethan shot him.  I wonder if that has any kind of significance.  Would that have effected the future?

-Locke became Other-ized pretty quickly, he couldn’t care less what happens to Juliet, Sawyer, or Daniel anymore.  When he gets off the island he apparently appeals to Jack and Kates guilt about who they left behind.  So he remembers his friends only when he has to.  Locke’s not looking too good these days.

503-compass-011-I was yelling at Locke to just show Richard that compass, I hate when people don’t do what they are told to do.  He mentions his name, talks about Jacob, scoffs at Widmore, how hard was it to pull that compass out?

-Go down to the bottom to read about Locke and his “specialness”.

Jacob

-Richard responds to Locke mentioning Jacob’s name way back in the 50s.  That’s unfortunate, it screws up my Jacob is Horace Goodspeed theory quite soundly.

-There is a way that it could work still.  I’ve had this theory bouncing around my head for about a week now.  If there is a scientific/time-travel reason for The Whispers, then why can’t there be a scientific reason behind Jacob?  Perhaps he’s incorporeal and creepy because he’s been time traveling too much.  Perhaps he is stuck in time skips like Locke and co. except that he’s actually stuck with no way out.  Maybe that’s what happens if you don’t stabilize yourself.  It would explain why he’s such a good spiritual guide, if he’s travelled in time for long enough he might know everything about the past and future.
But that’s all I got and it’s pretty weak.  It looks like my theory is done.

Flashes (what we know now):

The Present

501-desmond-01The time thing is confusing, to say the least.  Our group on the island is going to continue to jump around a lot this season.  The obvious question each time they jump is, “When are they?”  What I’m confused about is how did Daniel contact Desmond in the relative future?  How did he remember that meeting at that time?  Why not any other time?
I have an abstract idea about that.  I believe that while the island group is traveling through time, they are still traveling on the same “present” timeline as Desmond and the others off the island.  So that means that while they are technically in the 50s in this episode, they are really in 2007 or so.  If they ever get out of this spin cycle they will appear in 2007.
If you followed that line of reasoning then good for you, I’m surprised.

Ms. Hawking & Desmond

308-mrs-hawkins-01Desmond could have made a different choice.  When Desmond flashed back to the 90s in Flashes Before Your Eyes Ms. Hawking told him that he could change things because time is regulated by rules.  Buuut in Because You Left Daniel says that Desmond can break the rules.  So perhaps Ms. Hawkingwas lying.  When you think about it, she didn’t really need to tell Desmond about the rules, he would have found out anyways.  Why did she take him aside?  Perhaps her friend/accomplice was behind her presence there.  Perhaps Charles Widmore, a man ho according to many or my assumptions in this episode, has had a prior relationship with her had set up there meeting.  It wouldn’t be unusual… well maybe it would be, but it’s not impossible.
(don’t get me wrong, I’m glad that Desmond didn’t change the future, I don’t like that kind of stuff anymore than you do, but I think it was possible.)

Locke Being “Special”

411-richard-01

So I’ve always assume that Locke is special.  That was confirmed for me in Cabin Fever, when we saw that he was being monitored by Richard since he was a baby.  I figured that the island must have chosen Locke from a young age.  Now it turns out that the island didn’t direct Richard to Locke as a baby, Locke did.  So now what?  He wasn’t special as a baby, he wasn’t special when he failed Richard’s test as a child, he wasn’t special when he was a ridiculous teenager, how is he special now?  Is he special simply because Jacob said two words to him?  Is he special because the island cured his legs?  Richard said that he was very special because of that.  But that’s all.  Locke’s shiny specialness is wearing off, slowly but surely.
Oh and the fact that he left the island and died isn’t very encouraging either.

– Izi

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13 Responses to “503 – Jughead”


  1. 1 Anon
    January 29, 2009 at 3:02 am

    “I don’t think that the bomb was necessary. The story could have continued without it. I wonder if there is a hydrogen bomb somewhere on the island, buried or something.”

    A lot of people are thinking it was buried under the hatch. Remember Sayid and Jack explored underneath the hatch and found a ton of concrete and Sayid mentioned Chernobyl? I think that’s what imploded when Des turned the fail safe key and what Des was stopping by pushing the button every 108 mins.

    “I have an abstract idea about that. I believe that while the island group is traveling through time, they are still travelling on the same “present” timeline as Desmond and the others off the island. So that means that while they are technically in the 50s in this episode, they are really in 2007 or so. If they ever get out of this spin cycle they will appear in 2007.
    If you followed that line of reasoning then good for you, I’m surprised.”

    I get that, that’s why they disappear right before they get shot or hurt because they’re technically not even born yet or whatever…ahhh…I do get it lol.

    Doesn’t explain Charlotte though.

    “Daniel says that Desmond can break the rules. So perhaps Ms. Hawkingwas lying. ”

    Yeah, I’ve got a feeling Ms Hawking’s a baddie and even Ben doesn’t know it yet. They certainly portrayed her that way in The Lie, even the whole hoodie thing made her look like the Grim Reaper.

    “So I’ve always assume that Locke is special. That was confirmed for me in Cabin Fever, when we sawy that he was being monitered by Richard since he was a baby. I figured that the island must hve chosen Locke from a young age. Now it turns out that the island didn’t direct Richard to Locke as a baby, Locke did. So now what? He wasn’t special as a baby, he wasn’t special when he failed Richard’s test as a child, he wasn’t special when he was a ridiculous teenager, how is he special now? Is he special simply because Jacob said two wrods to him? Is he special because the island cured his legs? Richard said that he was very special because of that. But that’s all. Locke’s shiny specialness is wearing off, slowly but surely.
    Oh and the fact that he left the island and died isn’t very encouraging either.”

    This is fascinating, Locke’s story seemingly coming together. He’s always failed, even when we thought the island “chose” him, he’d still either lose his legs, get shot, get captured, get alienated by the survivors. Something would always go wrong but he never gave up hope that he was “destined” for something.

    NOW we’re seeing that HE HIMSELF may have cause him to believe all these things. If Locke getting shot by Ethan in the past was the reason for Locke’s legs loosing feeling in S1 and making Boone climb to the plane instead then it WASN’T the island, it was HIM.

    Locke is the cause of his own hope AND misery…maybe…this is just a theory but it certainly seems to be heading that way.

    Locke caused Richard’s interest in him as a child which further fuelled his “im special” belief.

    It’s like he unknowingly builds himself up to tear himself down later. Maybe he really does commit suicide eventually! I love this show. 🙂

  2. 2 jcm
    January 29, 2009 at 5:24 am

    This first thing I want to mention is not important in the long run and just a little oddity. There are some characters in the show that are recurring but have no importance and are really there for character connections (I suppose). One of the biggest recurring yet unimportant character is Randy (Locke and Hurley’s boss) who also appeared in “The Beginning of the End” Season 4, Episode 1 in which he is filming Hurley’s crash at the end of his high speed chase. Why he was there filming is beyond me. I didn’t even see him during the season or read about him being in that episode anywhere. It wasn’t until the Season 4 DVD came out and my wife and I were rewatching it that she pointed him out. I went “Whoa…that is him!”. Another odd recurring character was the nurse that was at Locke’s bedside when he woke up from having his kidney removed. That nurse was also in “A Tale of Two Cities” Season 3, Episode 1. Her and Jack were looking over a patient’s chart and Jack sees his father down the hospital hallway talking and laughing on the phone. Another odd yet unimportant recurrence.
    On to my point now that I’ve set it all up. The lady that Desmond was talking to in the office at Oxford was the same lady who was running gate 23 for Flight 815. She was the one that Hurley gave a big sweaty bear hug to after she let him get on the plane late. I noticed that and just had to share it.
    After everything cool about last night’s episode, that was the one thing I couldn’t wait to share. 🙂

  3. 3 lvgirl
    January 29, 2009 at 8:44 am

    I thought the episode was a 10, but then again, I don’t try to have theories because I know Lost will always blow them out of the water. The people on the island are not in 2007, they are still in 2005 most likely the beginning of it.

    Charlotte with her collapse at the end of the episode looks like she is not going to make it. The questions that I have after this episode is that What did Charles Widmore do to get himself “kicked” of the island? Why does he say that the island is his when clearly he was not the one that Richard answered to in the 50’s?

    I also think that Richard may have been trying to prevent what he is seeing as dire events in the future when he tries to recruit a young Locke. Charles Widmore also knows now of a John Locke and if Widmore has the connection with Abaddon who gave John the idea for the walk about.

    The US military did alot of nuclear bomb testing in the 50’s not only in my home state of Nevada but also in the South Pacific on deserted islands. It stands to reason that they would have gone to the island and thought it unihabitted, but as we know, this island is not, it is a special place. The Others would have had to protect it from the US military and destroy all the soldiers, however, I think that seeing the people on the beach and attacking them when clearly they did not look military at all was perhaps not a good move by the Others.

    Hopefully soon we will be able to see how the others got started…Latin…the four toes sandled stature…did the Romans find this island? All in all I would have to say that I loved this episode- the Others, Widmore, Desmond, Losties Lost in time- and am liking the Oceanic Six less and less.

  4. 4 missscarlett
    January 29, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Ellie (Ms. Hawking)

    Whoa! Never thought of that — but then Daniel and Penny would be siblings! (if my theory is correct)

    Jones,” bah. “Tricksy Hobbits”. Seriously, that was very clever misdirection. I wasn’t even suspecting that Jones was Widmore. Did anyone here see that coming?

    it’s actually Hobbitses — I only remember because I love it when other people make up language like I do!
    I was catching on when he strode into the camp and barked at Ellie like that. The neck snapping should have been a bigger clue! That man is ruthless. I was still thrilled when Richard called him by name.

    LOVED Jones’ lines about Locke being a sodding old man!

    with the strange hair.
    Ellie’s hair was strange?? she reminded me of the Nazi Youth brigade

    I think it’s awesome that The Others speak Latin. I know it doesn’t matter but I still think it’s great.
    I know! I’ve always wanted to learn Latin. “I saved Latin. What did you ever do?”

    Locke’s not looking too good these days.
    These days??

    I believe that while the island group is traveling through time, they are still travelling on the same “present” timeline as Desmond and the others off the island.
    Oh yeah. I didn’t even question that. how strange does my mind work?

    Locke’s shiny specialness is wearing off, slowly but surely.
    Oh and the fact that he left the island and died isn’t very encouraging either.
    I Know! I was so disappointed that it was Locke’s idea for Richard to visit him.
    And your last line made me LOL!

    One of my favourite episodes!
    (which isn’t really saying a lot since it is only the 3rd…)

  5. 5 missscarlett
    January 29, 2009 at 10:35 am

    Anon!

    NOW we’re seeing that HE HIMSELF may have cause him to believe all these things.

    That is Locke in a nutshell! And has always been my problem with him. He is always so willing to believe that him setting himself up for this makes perfect sense.

  6. January 29, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    @lvgirl
    “The questions that I have after this episode is that What did Charles Widmore do to get himself “kicked” of the island?”
    I’ve always supposed that he must have been one of the people who turned the Frozen Donkey Wheel. That would mean that he would be exiled from the island, and it would explain why he hasn’t been able to find it.
    – izi

  7. 7 lvgirl
    January 29, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    @ izi
    Maybe, but then again…Ben does lie. Charles Widmore seemed like a very hot tempered person who bucks authority and wants to “be respected”. He snapped that guys neck like it was nothing. If you’re an other, isn’t killing an Other bad? Juliet got branded for it.

  8. 8 Anon
    January 29, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    “On to my point now that I’ve set it all up. The lady that Desmond was talking to in the office at Oxford was the same lady who was running gate 23 for Flight 815. She was the one that Hurley gave a big sweaty bear hug to after she let him get on the plane late. I noticed that and just had to share it.
    After everything cool about last night’s episode, that was the one thing I couldn’t wait to share. :)”

    I NOTICED HER TOO!

  9. 9 jcm
    January 30, 2009 at 5:07 am

    “He snapped that guys neck like it was nothing. If you’re an other, isn’t killing an Other bad? Juliet got branded for it.” – lvgirl

    >: Remember when Mikhail shot Ms. Klugh at The Flame? It was to protect themselves and the island. Of course I’m not sure whether or not anyone ever knew that’s what happened. Also it was actually her idea for him to shoot her. But then Mikhail killed the two Looking Glass chicks as well. Then he dies so we don’t know what the island or Others might have done to him for his treachery.

    “What I didn’t like about this episode was the need for a bomb and the inclusion of the American Army, I don’t see the point of those two things. But I guess they needed some sort of danger.” -Izi

    >: Remember the US Army knife that Ana Lucia was toting around in Season 2? The one she picked up off of the Others that attacked their beach camp? I remember her saying that the knife was old and US Army issued. If anything, bringing the US Army into the storyline could explain the knife.

    >: I’m not sure that the donkey wheel was used in between the 1950’s and the present unless the island was moved to another location within the Pacific (which I guess is very possible!). If the US military was conducting experiments with atomic weapons on islands in the south Pacific, then the island has probably been in the same location since at least the 1950’s.

  10. 10 missscarlett
    January 30, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    hey I was thinking one thing about Little Locke

    He did still draw that picture of the dead man and Smokey…so maybe he has a teency bit of special to him.

    Although…it could be a camping fantasy picture about his stepdad…
    ;-p


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