Review:
So that was fun(ish).
I’ll try to start on a positive note. Jacob was awesome! Who knew he would be so likable. I kinda expected him to be quite distant and cold. But he was great. And that storyline that they started with Jacob and his nemesis was pretty epic. It’ll make for some great conflict next year (provided history isn’t erased, hahaha). New “Locke” is going to make for a very interesting villain.
That was a pretty epic reveal. It was all for shock value, it didn’t serve any real purpose except to confirm our suspicions about this new “Locke”. But really, it surprised me, and really raised the bar.
Uh oh I’m running out of nice things to say. Damnit, why did Juliet have to die? I’m back to having no one left to like anymore. This is going to be season 1 all over again. The only people I like are guest stars.
The flashbacks in this episode were slightly interesting, but they didn’t really hold my attention. The two good ones were Hurley’s and Ilana’s. The other ones were just filler. (Especially Juliet’s, what the hell was that?)
The one thing about this episode that I liked was the discovery of this new part of the story with Jacob, his nemesis and that new world. That will give me a lot of fodder for theorizing over the break. I could live without the rest of the episode. So where does that leave us? How much should I give the finale that I was almost completely unimpressed with? It can’t be less that 5, that’s not giving Jacob enough credit. but it’s definitely not more that 8.0. I’d say 7.0/10.0 A disappointing end to an epic season. (Jump to the bottom for more discussion on the score, I know many of you will be surprised/pissed about the score.)
Analysis
Jacob
-I feel weird saying this right off the get-go but I think Jacob is a god. He’s obviously a spirit of some kind. He can still die, but he definitely has powers and authority. He brought Locke back to life in his flashback, and the mere fact that he was in all those places is proof enough.
-After Jacob showed up in the flashbacks I started thinking that anyone that he appeared to was approved by him and therefore safe. (See “Jacob’s List” below)
-The ash circle around the Cabin was disturbed. The old theory was that this was to keep Smokey out of Jacob in. Now those theories seem almost laughable. They could be correct, but it seems more likely that the ash serves an even larger purpose. It could keep all gods or spirits out, it seems unlikely that the ash kept Jacob in. Here’s a question for you, what was the ash for?
-Oh yeah, in case you hadn’t guessed I’m dismissing my old Jacob is Horace Goodspeed theory. The truth is always more interesting than our theories, isn’t it? I’m always skeptical when the writers say that we don’t have enough info to come up with totally correct theories. I scoff at that then come up with another insane impossible theory. But they’re completely right. That doesn’t mean I”m going to quit trying though.
-The foot is a pretty conspicuous place for Jacob to live. Surely that’s a top destination for Island inhabitants, who wouldn’t explore the remains of a monolithic statue.
-Jacob tells Hurley that he’s definitely not dead. That’s a nice clarification.
-Jacob tells people that they always have a choice. He offers a choice to both Hurley and Ben.
-I don’t understand the tapestry thing. What significance does it have?
That was a piece of it that Ilana found, right? Was that just to tell her where to go, or was it a kind of warning.
-Did anyone not like the actor who played Jacob? I didn’t expect him to be that good. The last thing I saw him in was Dexter where he was playing druggie fool.
-I figured Jacob was going to die, they can’t give you that much info on a new character and let him live. Lost doesn’t introduce full-time characters like that.
Esau
-You should probably have figured this out by now but I’ve named that other god guy from the opening scene Easu, as in “Jacob and Esau”. I figure it’s pretty fitting and not hard to remember. If anyone has any better suggestions I’ll pretend to be willing to change the name.
-“Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?” That’s pretty intense. I hope they allow us to see more into Jacob’s world, it seems fun.
-Bram’s conversation with Frank was very important.
Frank, “I wish you never showed me what was in this damn box. What are you going to do with it, anyways?”
Bram said, “We’re going to show it to somebody.”
Frank, “What for?”
Bram, “So they’ll know who their up against.”
Frank, “What the hell are they up against?”
Bram, “Something a hell of a lot scarier than what’s in this box Frank.”
I don’t think that Ilana and Bram expected to show the box to Jacob, I think they were expecting to show it to Richard and The Others. They were hoping to get to Richard before Locke did.
-I can’t imagine why you would agree with Esau but I have to ask. Does anyone like this guy? Are there still people out there, after this episode, that still think it was a good idea to kill Jacob?
“Locke”
-I purposefully put “Locke” underneath Esau. They’re one and the same. The quotation marks are just to differentiate from the old Locke that we knew and we were constantly frustrated by and the new “Locke”, which scares me. (At some point I’ll have to go back and alter some of my most recent posts, that’s what happens after realizations like this.)
-As soon as they showed that scene with Jacob and Esau I immediately assumed that Locke had been possessed by Esau. (After watching Carnivàle that didn’t seem like a crazy theory.)
-I was incredibly shocked when they rolled Locke out of the box. (BTW, if you like this whole story about Jacob and Esau and Locke and Richard, all that stuff, then I really recommend you watch Carnivàle.)
-They gave us some serious hints about “Locke” but they also tried to lead us astray a few times too. They made a direct mention to something that only Locke would know about, Locke and Ben meeting in the Swan. And “Locke” had no idea about the four toed foot and the fact that Jacob lived under it. That last one made me doubt the whole possession theory.
-Richard says to “Locke” that he’s guessing that Jacob is the reason why “Locke” isn’t in that coffin anymore. The second time around that line is much more significant. It’s true that Jacob is the reason, but he’s not the cause.
-Oooh, that’s why “Locke” didn’t care about Ben killing him.
-“Locke” wanted Ben to tell Richard about his plan to kill Jacob. Very interesting. “Locke” seems to think that he’s invincible, he’s trying to lure Richard out, I think he wants to fight him. This guy loves conflict.
-The look on “Locke’s” face when Ben tells him that he has to do whatever he says is priceless. What a bonus for him. “Locke” thought he’d have to convince Ben to make him kill Jacob.
-“Locke” says to Ben about Jacob,”Things will change once he’s gone.” Season 6 is going to be out of control.
-“Locke” totally knows that Ben would kill Jacob. He’s grinning so much when Ben is giving Jacob his little speech.
Locke
-Did Jacob make Locke Special when he brought him back to life after he fell out of the building? He’s certainly responsible for making him walk again after the crash.
-What exactly happened to Locke’s body. Did Ajira take it out of the coffin and put it into that crate? That’s pretty awful. Oh never mind, Ilana explained it, the Third Party found him in the coffin and they took him out.
-It’s pretty amazing that it took this long for Lost to do a switcheroo like this. There have never been two versions of the same person in this show. That’s not an uncommon thing in sci-fi shows, so it’s pretty crazy that Lost managed to avoid it.
-That was one of the craziest reveals in Lost’s history. It didn’t actually change anything because I presumed that Locke had been possessed by Esau, but to see the body just confirmed it beyond a doubt.
Richard
-Richard’s discomfort with Locke is now easily explained. Sure he was surprised he was alive, but he must have been able to sense the difference in Locke.
-Richard agrees with me, Locke “doesn’t seem particularly Special”.
-It’s nice to hear that Richard was close to Jacob. I always wondered why Jacob talked to Ben and not Richard when Richard was obviously more Special. Ben says that Jacob spoke exclusively to Richard.
-The answer to “What lies in the shadows of the Statue” is,”Ille qui nos omnes servabit”, which translated means,”He who will save us all”. I got that from Yahoo Answers, does anyone have any better translation?
-Richard didn’t die, whew. Another year survived as a guest star.
Ilana
-Locke said to Richard that he wants to “deal with” the rest of the Ajira passengers. I presume that he knew what Ilana was up to and he wanted to stop her.
-I can’t imagine what Ilana’s gauzed up condition was, or what it was caused by. Maybe she was a burn victim. Maybe she had reconstructive surgery done, maybe it’s Ana Lucia in disguise. (heh heh heh)
-I’m confused again about the Third Party’s purpose. It wasn’t to blow up Jughead. They got to the Island with all their guns and stumbled upon the crate with Locke inside. That made them look for help, to tell people that “Locke” was a fraud. But Jacob asked for Ilana to help before that. What was that about? What were they doing there before that? Maybe they were just Jacob’s reinforcements. I don’ t know why The Others weren’t enough.
-I think my Third Party theory is thoroughly done for. My favorite piece of evidence, that Ilana could have only known about Ajira 316 from Eloise, was pretty much debunked after Jacob asked her to help him and he told Hurley what flight to get on.
-Ilana’s conversation with Richard kinda makes me wonder if she’s an Eternal too. Jacob blessed Richard with long life, maybe he did the same to Ilana. Or perhaps there’s something else Special about her. They were certainly familiar with each other, and Ilana muct have really like Jacob, or owed him one or something in order to be willing to agree to do anything for him in that condition.
Bram
-Once Bram mentioned candidates it became clear that they weren’t evil. I don’t know why that changed my mind, but it did. They wouldn’t be willing to recruit random people if it was some kind of crazy evil organization.
-Bram tells Frank that he’ll be safe if he sticks with their group. I guess the Third Party feels that The Others won’t harm them.
Christian
-Ilana says that “Someone else has been using it” referring the Cabin. That’s got to be a reference to Christian. The fact that neither Ilana or Bram know Christian makes me more convinced that he’s not aligned with Jacob. (see Christian & Claire below)
-Ilana burns the Cabin, was that to prevent Christian from using it? (I think maybe they didn’t want to use that set anymore.)
-Is it possible that Jacob was visiting Christian just as much as he was visiting Jack in that flashback?
Ms. Hawking
-They got rid of Eloise pretty quickly. I was hoping that she wouldn’t stick around during the Incident but I didn’t think she’d be allowed to leave that easily.
-Eloise would be a mighty good person to have in a fight. She’s incredibly ballsy.
-Ms. Hawking was the Other’s leader. I can’t say that I expected her to be the only leader. She must have left soon after the Incident though, which let Widmore take over, he appeared to be the leader when Alex was born (around 1988).
-It’s funny how whenever the writers expose a new layer of the show they raise the bar higher. Two episodes ago I was talking about Eloise, Charles, Locke and Ben being the power players. Suddenly that’s changed. Now it’s Jacob, Esau/”Locke”, Richard and Ilana.
Hurley
-Is it significant that Jacob didn’t visit Hurley until he was older? Did Hurley need to prove himself before he warranted a visit, or did Jacob visit him because he needed help. The guitar was an interesting touch. Obviously it was a Charlie reference, I think we all expected Charlie to be the one who would get Hurley to go back.
-Did Jacob set up Hurley’s release from jail? I can’t imagine how else he could have got out.
-Jacob tells Hurley that he is not crazy. That’s enough for me. Hurley’s not crazy! Case closed.
-Hurley sees Libby! Isn’t that nice. If only we could see her too.
Ben
-Ben made me so sad in this episode. Watching him lose all of his confidence and get manipulated by “Locke” was painful.
-I was shocked to hear all of Ben’s story about that show he put on in Jacob’s Cabin. I had dismissed that as ancient history, but the writers felt the need to show us that Ben was faking it… up until the point when he was thrown against the wall. Apparently Jacob didn’t like to be mocked.
I think I remember a commenter or another blogger talking about this over the hiatus. Some one said that they knew he was faking it. I certainly didn’t know that.
-Poor little Ben doesn’t figure out what “Locke” is. He almost does, he asks, “have you met before?” Then “Locke” ignites his anger again.
-What did Jacob have against Ben? Why wouldn’t he trust him? That was a strange mistake on his part.
-What’s up with Smokey and Alex? Alex told Ben to follow Locke and do whatever he says. Why would Alex want that? Something else is at work here.
Juliet
-They were not fair to Juliet in this episode. Besides the whole killing her thing, it was cruel of them to suddenly change her into an incredibly wishy-washy character (whenever I use that expression I think of Charlie Brown). Her logic was correct each time she changed her mind, but she’s not the type to change her mind on a whim. And it was very out of character for her to force Sawyer to follow her. I think they tried to make her annoying so that we wouldn’t care much about her dying. Bastards. Guess what, we still remember useful Juliet who get’s things done, and doesn’t back down. When I remember the character I won’t be thinking about this episode.
-Juliet gazed back at the sub for so long, long enough for you to realize that she wanted to get off the Island still. That last scene with Rose and Bernard, “maybe another time”, made me literally cry out. The writers were just cruel.
-Was it the red shirt?
-Here’s an out-of-the-blue question, did Jacob really heal Juliet’s sister? That seemed likely back in the day, but now it seems odd.
-Juliet’s flashback just angered me. All these other flashbacks were so significant. They pretty much guaranteed that the character was important. And when it showed that it was a Juliet flashback I was thrilled. But then there was no Jacob.
-Juliet made me crazy when they came in in the van. She’s sitting in the back behind absolutely no cover.
-Frikkin chains! CHAINS!!
-Couldn’t she have had a happier ending? Was it necessary to show her broken and destroyed at the bottom of a pit, desperately trying to end her life which was so full of suffering?
-What would have been wrong about Juliet staying on the sub and leaving and Sawyer going back to stop Jack? Wouldn’t that have been a better way to get rid of the character? Nothing different was accomplished by killing her. And she could have returned at some point. I think the Lost writers have the same problem that ER writers had after a while, they don’t think a character exit is dramatic enough without a death.
Sawyer
-I wish Sawyer had died with Juliet. That would have been better. It’s not that I want him to die, I don’t, but I really don’t think I want to see him alone. And I wanted Juliet to die less. Sawyer isn’t as likable without Juliet beside him.
-Who was that guy in Sawyer’s flashback? Was he important? He told Sawyer that “what’s done is done”, but that can’t be it.
-Sawyer had another great Han Solo moment when he shot the speaker in the sub. Very clever.
-Who else was surprised when Sawyer said his parents died last year. I don’t know why that affected me.
-Josh Holloway did some good acting during and after his fight with Jack.
Miles
-I’m happy that so far I’m not completely right about The Island Killing it’s Offspring. But I’m still very wary about Miles’ future. If he’s a guest star next year he’s a goner.
-In the commercial break right before Miles talks about the bomb being the Incident, I was saying that same thing to my friends. Hilarious.
-Miles saving his dad was special, that relationship is comforting. I don’t know why but it’s nice to see someone healing their daddy issues.
Sayid
-Sayid got on board with Jack’s plan very easily. There goes the theory about him just playing along.
-Jacob showing up in Sayid’s flashback wasn’t quite as reassuring as when he showed up in the other flashbacks. Here’s hoping that Jacob doesn’t like Sayid.
-When Sayid got shot in the gut my immediate reaction was, “shoot him again in the head.” Hahaha ha…ha.
-If Sayid is dying in this episode then it wasn’t dramatic enough. It makes me think that he’s not going to die.
-If you want to participate in the poll below but you believe that the timeline will be wiped out because of the hydrogen bomb then perhaps you shouldn’t vote.
Nadia
-I laughed way too hard in that scene. I might have enjoyed that a little too much. Why are scenes where people get killed by cars so funny to me? (Remember Meet Joe Black? That was the best part of the movie.)
-The big questions is, did Jacob want that to happen? Did he go there to get Nadia killed. (see “Jacob’s List” below)
Kate
-The little kid casting in this episode was glorious. the Kate and Sawyer kids were perfect.
-Jacob acted like he really liked Kate, even if he knew his “be good Katie” was falling upon deaf ears.
-I was shocked when Kate changed her mind about Jack’s plan.
Jack
-Wouldn’t it have been awful if Jack had shot Hurley when he drove up to him in the VW van.
-Jack’s story about cutting the “Dural sac” and the “angel hair pasta” was quite altered when he told it to Kate. What else has Jack lied about? Hmmm.
-Jack was wearing his mask wrong in his surgery scene, it was very distracting.
-I never asked the question that Sawyer asked Jack, what does Jack want from changing the past? The answer didn’t make much sense. I think they did that just to make us think about the love triangle. New Jack shouldn’t care about things like that.
-So Jack wants Kate back? Does he know how easy she is? She was ready to profess her love for him when he left with the bomb.
-I was very happy to see Jack finally get beat up. It’s always Sawyer and Ben. I don’t think that Jack would have been able to put up that much of a fight.
Jin
-Were Jin’s vows that hard to memorize? Did he really need to write them down?
Sun
-Charlies’ ring, whadya know. How many other people called it as soon as Sun walked over to the crib? When I was rewatching the old episodes I was wondering whether they were just going to leave the ring there, it’s been there since the end of Season 3.
Rose
-“Oh hell no. They found us.”
-That whole, “we retired” scene was badly written. The point of the discussion was great and I’m glad it happened, but it was just strange. It was at a George Lucas level of bad dialogue.
Bernard
-“Son of a bitch.” What foul mouths they’ve developed.
Pierre
-Isn’t Pierre the best. He’s the only guy in the past who believed the time-travelers and he easily switched sides in that fire-fight. He even lost his arm because he decided to help.
-I told my friends early on that we have to watch for Pierre to lose his arm. Apparently my friends aren’t as clever as I give them credit for because they were absolutely amazed when it happened.
-Pierre totally got away from the Swan site before the bomb went off.
Vincent
-The three year gap never seemed so big until Sawyer and Juliet ran into Vincent.
Frank
-Why did Frank say that thing about how torching the Cabin would burn the forest down. Is anyone actually concerned about that kind of thing? Nobody even reacted to his question.
-I’m still shocked that Frank is still around. How could they kill Daniel and Charlotte and choose to keep Frank?
Flashes (what we know now):
The Statue
I may have jumped the gun here. For some reason I saw a long snout and assumed that the statue was Taweret. So you can read what I have below, it’s still very interesting, but I kinda overstated it.
So the statue is officially Taweret, right? This has a pretty interesting significance. Taweret is the god of women and childbirth. The destruction of her statue could have been a harbinger of the curse the Island put upon women who tried to have children on the Island. The destruction of the statue wasn’t directly connected to the problem with childbirth because the statue was gone when Amy gave birth to Ethan. But still. You know what I’m getting at here.
It would also explain why so many women die on this Island, or it could just be that the writers have a hard time writing for women.
(And good job to Lostie, who commented on my blog way back in Lafleur and told me that it was probably Taweret. My hat is off to you.)
Jughead’s Effect
The Hostiles left Jughead underneath The Barracks. That would have made that whole area full of radiation. Is it possible that that is why women can’t give birth?
Christian & Claire
This is very important stuff. If Esau took the form of Locke in order to kill Jacob, then what happened to Christian and Claire. It has always been clear that Christian was significantly altered when he came back on the Island. So who is he? I don’t think he was Esau too, We saw Christian a few days ago talking to Sun. There must be other gods on the Island. This could throw off my theory about Christian working against Jacob.
The same could be asked about Claire. Sure, she could be alive and she may have just been tricked by Christian to stay with him, but I think the consensus is that she’s pretty dead. I’m wondering if maybe she’s Taweret. This kind of thinking makes me want to assign Egyptian gods to everyone. (I really wish it was Greek gods, I actually know that mythology.) Again, all this Taweret stuff was a bad assumption on my part.
Jacob’s List
Not that list, this is the list of people that Jacob appeared to in this episode. I think this is very significant. If Jacob chose these people to come to the Island then they must be important. I think that means guaranteed safety for some time.
Here’s the list:
- Kate
- Sawyer
- Sayid
- Sun
- Jin
- Ilana
- Locke
- Jack
- Hurley
The Sayid visit was the most different. He didn’t go there to help him or reassure him in any way. It’s possible that he went there to save Sayid’s life, but doesn’t it seem more likely that he went there to kill Nadia? Maybe that’s just me being grim.
Will anyone even remember their visit from Jacob. He didn’t make big impressions with many of them. Perhaps Jin and Sun would. Obviously Ilana would remember, and Hurley would. But that’s it.
The Black Rock
So Jacob drew the Black Rock to the Island, knowing that their would be serious struggle and death. That’s all very interesting, but I still wonder how it got into the middle of the jungle.
Also I think it’s pretty much guaranteed that Richard was on the Black Rock. Jacob chose him and blessed him with long life a very long time ago, and just in the last episode we saw Richard working on a little model of a ship like the Black Rock.
Also, the statue was destroyed after the Black Rock got there.
Bodies
We see in this episode that Esau used Locke’s body for his own purpose. Esau is some kind of spirit. Does that mean that the body we first see him in was nothing but another dead guy? So is Jacob in a different person’s body too? He still died though. I don’t think Esau would go through that much trouble to kill Jacob if Jacob could just jump into another body. This body snatching thing confuses me. It seems as though Esau doesn’t have a lot of power in Locke’s body. He couldn’t kill Jacob. Perhaps that was for a different reason, but I tend to think that “Locke” is powerless.
7.0/10.0??!!?
I know, I know. “How could you give it such a low score?” I’ve explained this before and I’ll do it again, my Review section isn’t nearly as important as my Analysis section. But I’m sure that doesn’t satisfy any of you.
Compare this finale with some of the other ones. This one was as bad as the Season 1 finale, if Jacob wasn’t in this episode it would have been worse. (BTW, since season 5 my expectations have gone higher. It was the time travel. It made me want more. That seems to happen every year.) Anywho. This episode gives me almost nothing to theorize about. Remember the Seasom 4 finale? I blogged about that for a solid month. There’s no way I’m getting a month out of this episode.
Season 6
I have to be careful this time. Last finale I was firmly against time travel. I said that I didn’t want it to happen and then I created loads of theories based on the assumption that it wouldn’t happen. I don’t want to make that same mistake this time.
I don’t think that Jack changed the past. It seems to me that they simply fulfilled history. That was confirmed when Pierre lost his arm. So that limits my options for theories. I don’t think that they all died in the explosion, but I’m sure that it looked like it. I’m hoping that this explosion they caused activated the energy down there and therefore altered time. I hope that means that anyone close to the blast would be thrown back into the future. I hope that’s what Jacob meant by, “They’re coming”. Perhaps that group that Jacob visited was destined to stop “Locke”.
But I’ve learned my lesson. I’m not going to put all my eggs in one basket. If Jack did succeed then I believe that we will get to watch the events of the last 3 or 4 seasons over again and in fast-forward. If Jack was successful and did change the past then there will need to be some major course correction. I think that course correction would start with Oceanic 815 crashing again. I would hope that all of our survivors would get put back into the original crash. They would jump back to Sept 22, 2004 they would crash again, except this time they would have all of their memories. That would make for an epic final season. (But I honestly don’t think this will or should happen.
(Note: Funny thing, I didn’t know the finale was tonight. I thought they were doing their usual part 1 this week then parts 2 and 3 next week. You may notice that some of my recent posts have been strangely worded regarding that.)
– Izi
Not Confused Just Lost 
the writers have publicly stated several times that Claire is NOT DEAD
just so you know…
SEASON 6 SPOILER:
Really? I don’t recall that. I remember them saying that they are bringing her back in Season 6, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say she’s definitely alive or definitely dead.
– izi
Me neither. I always interpreted it as she’ll be in the season too, with no confirmation either way.
Why are you so sure the statue is Taweret? The head looked like and alligator rather than a hippo. The teeth were pointy and the snout was long and narrow.
More comments to come. Just wanted to get that in there.
I don’t know why I was so sure… I guess that was the first thing that came to mind. Who’s the alligator headed god? Look at those teeth! Obviously that’s not a hippo head. *sigh* I need a proof-reader.
I’ll have to get in there and change that.
– izi
Many are of the consensus that it’s Sobek, the crocodile headed god. From Sledgeweb:
“Sobek is also being mentioned as a candidate on some Lost sites tonight. Sobek doesn’t match the statue completely from behind, but you could argue that his face, that of a crocodile, is very similar to the statue’s face. Anyway, what’s most interesting about Sobek is this:
Sobek’s ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part.
That sure sounds a lot like our Jacob to me.”
http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2009/05/5×16-the-statue-finally-settle.php#more
I liked this episode, although it raised many more questions.
It was gut wrenching to see Juliet ‘die’. How she survived the plunge in the first place is interesting. And just awful to see Sawyer immobilized with grief. Great acting by these 2 in particular. I was a fan of Juliet and Sawyer. And Juliet was the only sane, steady female. Kate dying wouldn’t have had the same viewer emotional impact….kinda like Sayid- it’s sad, but not hitting the heart.
There’s the old Jack, always trying to fix things…Miles was the only one that understood the bigger picture.
I don’t understand why Esau needed a dead Locke. He had a dead Christian, and other dead ones that could have manipulated Ben to kill Jacob. What exactly was the loophole? Why Locke? What was it about Locke that made it necessary to use him? And still, even as Locke, Esau couldn’t physically kill Jacob himself. So “dead is dead” is right. But we never found Christian’s body….. New Locke is creepy. So this was old Locke’s destiny? To be a pawn and die as one?
Poor Ben, ego took quite a hit. I didn’t like the “faking” bit either. He was searching for Jacob one time and said Hurley knows where the cabin is…so it didn’t seem to me that he was that clueless.
Then who was in the cabin that said “help me” to Locke? And why in ghostly form? Why would Jacob give up his cabin to anyone? No one outside the statue’s foot saw Jacob anyway, so why bring all these people?
Still waiting for concrete answers on Smokey. And I think Jacob will rise again. He went down too willingly for someone with powers.
Season 6 should see the return of Claire- writers did say she’s not dead and will return in the 6th. Desmond too should be back.
Too many questions! And now we have to wait many agonizing months.
I don’t think Esau could touch Jacob, therefore he couldn’t hurt or kill him. He needed someone else to do it, someone human. And I don’t think Christian was controlled by Esau. I wish I did believe that, it would make my theories about Christian better, but I think that Christian was possessed/replaced by a different spirit/god.
I can’t even guess what happened to Locke’s destiny. When you think about it Christian and new “Locke” told old Locke that he had to leave the Island and die, it all could have been a way to facilitate Esau’s plan.
All those other people are at the foot so that they can react to “Locke” and Ben killing Jacob. Perhaps there’ll be a fight at the beginning of Season 6.
It’s a little crazy that Desmond was off-Island this whole season, eh? I expected him to go back.
– izi
I thought that the statue was Sobek also but on the episode recap page on ABC they say that the statue is Taweret. Check it out here – http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=recap#t=162212&d=201648
The meaning behind Sobek seemed to fit better and in a more multidimensional way than Taweret but is there precedence for the episode purposely stating a lie?
Plus Taweret has other things going for it and it usually has two ankh’s, has 4 toes (Sobek has human feet) and is depicted with a longish snout. Check out this one – http://egyptianhealing.com/Taweret.jpg
Unfortunately it’s too slender to pass all the Taweret acid tests, but I think that was just a ploy to cause some debate about whether or not the statue is tied to fertility or repairing wrongs
I’ve never looked at those offical recaps. That’s crazy. Do they usually give info like that?
About the slenderness of the staue, perhaps it’s a non-pregnant Taweret. Hmmm. That would be interesting. But you’re right about that, from behind it isn’t identifiable as Taweret.
I think they messed with the statue, made it more ambiguous so that we’de have this kind of debate. I really should do another poll about who it is.
– izi
yeah i never check them either, but someone linked it in Lostpedia, thus enlightening me. Another thing that stuck out from the episode recaps is that they went out of their way to point out how Jacob touches everyone he encounters in the flashbacks, but it’s unclear if he touches Sayid even though he reached out. So there’s another little theory feeding nugget for you.
You’re the only one to blame if you don’t have anything to theorize about. Here are some ideas, apart from the classic ones (like “WTF IS SMOKEY?”)
– What’s ΘΞΟΙ ΤΟΣΑ ΔΟΙΞΝ ΟΣΑΦΡΞΣΙ ΣΗΣΙ ΜΞΝΟΙΝΑΖ ?
– What lies in the shadow of the statue? And who is the one who will save us all?
– How did Esau take the form of Locke?
– Who the hell is Jacob and why does Esau want to kill him?
etc.
Don’t forget, “They’re coming” I think that one was more than just a warning about the Others or the Third Party heading into The Foot.
I know, I was a little too quick to say that I had nothing to theorize about. There was a lot, but it’s still a pretty narrow focus. I’ll be theorizing about Jacob, Esau and Locke for a while now. And then I’ll try to solve the time travellers situation. But it’s just not like it was in other years. I miss flashforwards.
I’ve always liked more questions than answers, that’s why I love this show. As we get more and more answers and the writers are less and less willing to ask more questions I feel like I’m running out of things to guess about.
But not to worry, I’ve pretty much decided to re-analyze all the old episodes again. There’s nothing like re-re-reviewing seeason 1 to make you appreciate the last season.
– izi
One other thing, if you think there aren’t theories here to ponder you’re not trying.
For instance, try this one on for size- Now that we’ve seen that there is a good (white) side represented by Jacob, and an evil (black) side, Esau, then we can start making inferences from the other symbolism that fits.
First a disclaimer, when making theories for what happens next we need to be mindful of the constraint that there is only one season left. In other words theories like ‘Jacob isn’t what he appears to be and is actually evil’ should be thrown out b/c to write that into the plot line they would have to pretty much plop the plot line on your lap and make past actions seem gratuitous. We’re in the home stretch so all theories need to err on loose ends coming together rather than fraying once again.
So with that in mind, when we see white and black there is good reason to make the assumption that one is a symbol for Jacob and the other for his adversary. The Smoke Monster is almost obviously a manifestation of Esau. Outside of being black, it played Ben right into the hands of “Locke” just so he could be fooled into killing Jacob. We have seen that the SM throws people’s memories back at them for it’s own purpose.
Sooo, if the SM is Esau and tries to get people to do it’s bidding (Kill Jacob) through coercion and deceit we can assume that if Jacob tried to counteract this attack he would use a process that was the antithesis. This is where the theory that Jacob is behind the time travel starts to take shape. The flashes happen as white light. They allow people to have a chance to correct mistakes, but it is up to those people to make the choice. They aren’t forced one way or another, but they do have to live with they’re choices.
And we have a final reference to Jacob being righteous when he says “What about you?” (btw, my favorite part of the show) to Ben. This seemed to me to reference the passage of the bible that says that when reaching final judgement people would claim to know Jesus/God but would not find their name in the book of life. That whole interaction seemed to echo that Ben just used Jacob in name to promote his own personal ambition.
But that’s just one theory.
And a note about the radiation under the barracks, the radiation would be with the plutonium core under the swan not with the left over jughead.
pardon the long comment. Thanks for the great post.
Good point about the new kind of theories we have been making. That’s always been my problem, my favorite theories tended to tie up too many loose ends. Now that we know we only have one season left it’ll be muh easier to theorize (not that I’ll be more right).
I think that Smokey is seperate from Esau, they may in league, but I don’t think they are the same. Although it’s very possible. Last time we saw Smokey, “Locke” was conspicuously absent.
I don’t really understand what you mean with the flashes.
Good biblical reference about calling on the name of god. It’s true, that’s what Ben has been doing. I still don’t understand why Jacob rejected Ben so thoroughly.
I was thinking that having radiation spreading from Jughead into the soil and water under and around the Barracks might not be too healthy. But I don’t know anything about radiation or hydrogen bombs or anything so I shouldn’t guess about that kind of stuff.
– izi
here’s a better way to put a theory of the flashes – Jacob has the power to give people another chance to get what their heart desires. He does this by sending them back to a time place where they can choose to fix their past mistakes. We see this with Miles and his dad, Jack finds ways to prove he can lead and believe in himself, Kate raises Aaron as a way of making up for her bad past choices, Sawyer finding peace, Juliet a chance to leave the island, Farraday a chance to redeem his failed experiments, Sayid for all the deaths he caused. Yet they all have to choose to do so.
The black-Esau tricks and lies his way to get what he wants dominance, where as Jacob just wants to help others.
I was lost but now am found (thanks to Jacob)
Oh yeah, I think I get it now. At first I thought you meant that they had a chance to change their own past, but that makes more sense.
It was definitely purposeful for Miles to meet his dad and Daniel to meet his mom. I don’ think that was an accident.
– izi
I know this reply comes almost a year after the original post, perhaps what I have to say has been said, and I certainly hope I’m not stepping outside the bounds of this forum, but I shall forge ahead anyway.
I don’t believe Jacob rejected Ben.
Two reasons,
1. in regards to what has been posted here already, Jacob offers choices, opportunities that can change a person, alter their destiny, provide them closure, comfort, etc. He told Ben he had a choice period and that’s as far as Jacob has to go in his offer to anyone, he doesn’t have to coddle them further toward living the right life, that’s up to the individual. Jacob doesn’t reject Ben, he gives him the choice and allows Ben to do what Ben believes he has to do. Ben has Daddy issues and has continually killed or had a hand in killing the Daddy figures (his own father, his vendetta against Widmore, Locke’s father who also in a twisted was a Daddy figure for Sawyer, etc. etc.) So it’s logical that Jacob would offer him the choice to right this. Granted Roger made Ben’s life a living hell, but utimately in Ben’s mind Jacob did the same. Ben just made the wrong choice. (or to begin a different theory, the right choice allowing Jacob to be released from his current state and allow him to become stronger along the lines of (I hate to say it, but…) Ben Kenobi and Yoda.)
2. Humility – which is briefly covered in other posts. What about Ben? What about any of us? No one is more special than the other, we all have our happinesses and grievances and none of those things makes us more special than another to God or Gods or the Universe or what have you. It is vain for any of us to think that we will be placed upon a pedestal or have the ear of God for (saving the island) or the work we do for goodness or righteousnous. The reward is the mere act of doing it.
as a post script – I see Ben as a Judas figure (of which there are many in this show) to take great liberty with a Sondheim lyric, “he’s not good he’s not nice he’s just right he’s the witch, we’re the world. He’s what no one believes he’s the hitch, we’re all liers and thieves…” He’s merely a catalyst in our ‘Lost’ world. Without him, the story would be null and void of the things that keep us watching.
Not to bring anyone down but, I had read a post from the producers regarding the series finale that the reaction to it may be along the lines of the reaction to the Sopranos’ series finale.
Final thought…as Desmond said about life, ‘you can’t change it’. but as this show points out, there lies an opportunity a place where you can live it in alternate ways that are either more depressing or more challenging and meaningful.
In an interview with Doc Jensen on Dark UFO.com the producers gave a ‘teaser’ about last nights episode. He said it ‘would be a touching episode’ I am convinced he was referring to the fact that when Jacob visited everyone from the past HE DELIBERATELY TOUCHED ALL OF THEM EXCEPT ILLANA. He was wearing gloves when he visited her. Touching them ensures that they will come to the island. Thus the comment from Esau “You brought them here” refering to the Black Rock crew. Sooooo….. He visited the Black Rock crew (or at least one member)to ensure that they would end up on the Island.
Whoa! That is very interesting.
I wonder what’s happening with Ilana. I noticed the gloves and everything. Jacob and Esau never touched either. And “Locke” needed Ben to kill Jacob, perhaps that’s why he needed to find that loophole.
I hope that means that Ilana is a god.
– izi
My early thoughts. Sorry but I haven’t read much of the other comments yet past what I responded to. I wote this up separately just now.
So what we know is Jacob and his enemy, who I’ll again call Esau, have been on this island for a long long time. We can glean a whole lot from the beginning. It seems the two are in a long argument/struggle/conflict, the root of which is that Esau believes that anyone on the island will always be in conflict, there will always be fighting, destruction, and corruption. Jacob thinks otherwise, that at some point this can be changed. “It only ends once.” Everything else happens to lead up to this one end point. So even before the Black Rock, there’ve been others there with the same struggle, perhaps Egyptians. And many since then. US Army, the original Hostiles, Dharma, Russeau’s crew, 815, the Freighter, just cycles and cycles of conflict on the island. The big thing is that Esau says Jacob brought the Black Rock to the island. Jacob is trying to prove Esau wrong by bringing more and more groups to the island. So how powerful is Jacob? He doesn’t age, and can influence people toward the island, and can appear off the island seemingly anywhere. I don’t think he actually leaves, but can project himself off-island to talk to and influence other people. But Jacob can’t (or won’t) MAKE people do what he wants, he always leaves it up to their decision, presumably to keep with trying to prove Esau wrong. But is he more powerful than, or equally powerful to, Esau? Esau can seemingly project himself, but we’ve seen him do it as other people. Maybe Jacob can’t quite do that. They also can’t kill each other. So Esau had to go through a lot to “find the loophole” and influence Ben to kill him, via Locke. Why it took those specific people I don’t know.
So Jacob lives in the statue. I have a big feeling the cabin was never Jacob’s, and he never lived there. Ben was using it to pretend. It was Horace who originally built it, so this makes sense. However, the cabin is not meaningless. It just isn’t Jacob’s. There was still something going on there when Ben brought Locke to it. Things flying around, and Locke hearing “help me.” So many have believed this is where Esau perhaps was acting. But he didn’t really live there, we didn’t see anything but for a split second. We also see Ilana’s crew going to it, and I don’t think they were looking for Jacob there. I think they were looking for Esau. What significance the ash has, I have no idea. It being broken is a big deal apparently. Did we see it get broken? Was it broken when Ben and Locke or Hurley were at the cabin? Maybe it being broken allows Esau to escape and possess people. But he’s seemingly possessed Christian.
So now we’re at Christian, who’d instructed Locke that the island had to be moved, the wheel had to be turned. He also told him he had to die and bring everyone back. Now seemingly Esau would want him to die and come back so he could possess him, and he really doesn’t care about bringing everyone back. He only uses that part to convince Locke to die and come back, making it seem like it’s the only way. It’s odd though, if Christian is Esau, how did he appear to Sun and Frank to tell them what to do, if he was currently with Ben as Locke? Can he be two people at once? Seems like a atretch. I don’t remember the exact order of how those events happened as I can’t find the ep online anywhere, but it throws a big wrench into Esau also being Christian. I do think Christian is associated with Esau and his mission however. I also think Esau in associated with the smoke monster, but is not actually the smoke monster. I think Smokey acts on his behalf.
I think the end result here is that the characters we know, the 815ers and everyone related to them, will finally end this long going conflict and settle the argument somehow.
There’s a few holes in there and more I have to say but I want to play Fallout. Discuss.
This was Bones by the way, I think my name is saved differently from another blog.
I don’t think Esau is Christian. I’m hoping that there are quite a few different spirits/gods. It’s possible that Christian is to Esau what Richard is to Jacob. Except that Christian died, so that doesn’t make a lot of sense.
I like that line, “it only ends once”. That’s comforting, the ending has to come in the series finale, and it’s going to be quite final.
It’s funny how one episode can take all the significance out of something, like the Cabin. It was the most mystical part of the Island, next to the Temple, maybe. But then in one episode suddenly it’s just the cabin, no one’s inside, let’s burn it.
The “help me” line is now very odd. Jacob seems like he’s always been in control, I can’t imagine that was him asking for help. It might have been Esau or Christian. I don’t know, I’ll think more about that one.
– izi
Wow what a Unbelievable Finale Episode, the best Lost Finale EVER! 10.0/10.0
When Ben stabbed Jacob to death and Locke kicked him in the fire, that was so breathtaking then one minute later we see Juliet still alive when she starts banging that bomb with the rock, I went Crazy!
But my mouth is still open when I saw Locke in the crate box, this new Locke will create a brand new storyline for season 6, I just cant wait!
The man with young Swayer was his Uncle Doug(he was in the credits).
Thank you Izi for the shout-out about the statue Taweret. I still think it’s her but it also could be the other one that everyone else is saying Sobek, this god was linked to Taweret cause the both have crocodile faces.
Im surprised that was shocked at Juliets’s death, I was expecting it, didnt you see the RED shirt she had been wearing the last 3 episodes, that was a dead giveaway.
I kinda figured that her story was winding down, she was running out of things to do. But then Daniel died and I got completely caught up in that. Daniel’s death completely shocked me, I saw Juliet’s coming.
– izi
The statue is Sobek. This is due to the crocodile head and the statue holding the key of life.
Some of his characteristics are uncanny with Jacob’s here are a couple of quotes from wikipedia:
When considered a patron of the pharaoh’s army, he was shown with the symbol of royal authority – the uraeus. He was also shown with an ankh, representing his ability to undo evil and so cure ills
So has authority and can cure ills (ruling the island and healing locke). And what i find even more likening is this quote.
He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part.
Just like Jacob, who sets everything up and then lets it play its part.
On another note, I’m not sure if you noticed, but every time Jacob met someone off the island, he made a purpose of touching them. He touched everyone, except illana!
While I agree with it being Sobek, and love how the description fits Jacob very well, the statue holding ankhs is not a distinctive feature for Sobek. Most Egyptian god statues depict them holding ankhs.
Touching people is definitely important. I also think it’s important he didn’t touch Ilana, as it definitely seemed they knew each other before the meeting that we saw.
Sobek’s role is pretty vague, so thanks for the quotes.
I never noticed the touching thing the first time I watched the episode. I went back and checked it out, it was very deliberate. When he touched Sayid it was extremely noticable. I think touching them is a kind of blessing, also an invite. This makes me very worried about Miles, again. He definitely wasn’t invited, he was warned away by Bram. Trouble, I say.
I’ve said this a few times, but I enjoy repeating myself. I think it was almost more significant that Jacob couldn’t/wouldn’t touch Ilana. I think this is directly related to Esau’s loophole. Esau couldn’t touch Jacob, that’s why he couldn’t kill him and needed Ben. If Jacob couldn’t touch Ilana then that makes his relationship with her similar. I hope that means she’s a god/spirit too.
– izi
Whew, amazing episode. Incredibly long post ahead 😀
“The flashbacks in this episode were slightly interesting, but they didn’t really hold my attention. The two good ones were Hurley’s and Ilana’s. The other ones were just filler. (Especially Juliet’s, what the hell was that?)”
Juliet’s was just to parrallel with her realisation that she and Sawyer’s relationship was a sham. They only got together because of circumstances, and a need to stick together. Look at their interaction in the other seasons, they barely say a word to each other.
“After Jacob showed up in the flashbacks I started thinking that anyone that he appeared to was approved by him and therefore safe. (See “Jacob’s List” below)”
Jacob touched everyone who ended up on island (well, the ones that would survive for as long as they have/did?). Damon Lindelof said the finale would be very “touching” so obviously Jacob’s touch means something big.
“I don’t understand the tapestry thing. What significance does it have?”
See the movie Wanted. There’s some kind of ancient myth or tale or something where fate spins a tapestry detailing what will happen in the future…you’ll probably find info on google about it.
“-As soon as they showed that scene with Jacob and Esau I immediately assumed that Locke had been possessed by Esau.”
Me too 😀
“What’s up with Smokey and Alex? Alex told Ben to follow Locke and do whatever he says. Why would Alex want that? Something else is at work here.”
So I believe the entity we’ve been referring to as “the island” all this time, is actually that Esau guy. We all know how powerful evil can be, and we know he’s evil. All this time I thought the ISLAND was an evil entity, although I didn’t know how that would work. What if somehow, both Esau and Jacob are entities or gods as you said, who inhabit humans just because it’s easier to communicate or function that way. Somehow Esau ran out of power or somehow became less powerful than the time we saw at the start of the ep. Kind of like Voldemort still being a powerful entity after attempting to kill Harry Potter but needing everything to be in the right place at the right time in order to come to FULL power again.
So all this time we’ve been seeing a weak version of Esau. He’s the one who lived in the cabin (is it confirmed now that the cabin is Rose and Bernards? But then what about Horace’s?), he’s the one who inhabited the bodies of allll the people on the island like Christian, wet Walt, Locke’s mom in season 1, Boone (although that may have been jacob) – any dead person we’ve seen on island is either Jacob or Esau inhabiting them. NOT the island.
In the cabin scene with ben and locke, it was ESAU Locke heard saying “help me” not Jacob. Esau was running out of time or power or just saw Locke as a great potential body suit because he was such a believer. Locke also took down Ben in the cabin so maybe that convinced Esau too since Jacob didn’t seem that bothered or threatened by Ben…
So when Locke told Ben that “Jacob” said “help me”, Ben looked shocked because he couldn’t believe his “leader” needed help and was asking LOCKE not him.
It would also suit Locke’s tragic story that he ended up helping, and dying for, the evil entity not the good one. Similar to him losing Helen over Cooper…
I’m also thinking maybe Smokey IS Esau as well…Smokey is black (lol) and seems to turn evil if you don’t obey it or do what it wants.
So in Dead is Dead, “Locke” conveniently disappears, reappears as Smokey to make Ben feel extra guilty, then appears as Alex to make him follow “Locke”, then “Locke” appears again. This is all so he can kill Jacob!
I guess a popular theme is “not what it seems”. Jack always seems to be the hero when in reality, he just gets his ass saved all the time. His dad had to “save” him in the hospital scene, Ben saved him from falling apart by giving him the O6 mission, Juliet “saved” him by being the one who actually detonated the bomb…
So in essence, Jack is exactly like Locke. Always striving to mean something, when really meaning nothing and not being that special at all.
It works with others too
Sawyer believing he’s destined for pain and misery > always ending up happy somehow (for a while…)
Kate believing she’s born to run/bad > ending up good by raising Aaron, returning for Claire
Sayid believing he can be happy/Ana Lucia believing she could > he never will/she never was
Hurley believing he’s crazy > he’s not!
Dan believing he could change things > he never did
Michael believing he can be a good dad > NEVER was
Ben believing he’s in charge or ahead of everyone > nope
And it goes on lol
So I guess the thing is here, this whole time we thought the island was magical and jacob might be bad. Now we can probably say the island isn’t magic, it just holds two magical entities and is located somewhere powerful…and Jacob is most definitely good. WOO, I love this show.
“Here’s an out-of-the-blue question, did Jacob really heal Juliet’s sister? That seemed likely back in the day, but now it seems odd.”
I doubt it. Some people do just recover from cancer, so I guess it was chance that Rachel did at that time. Or maybe Esau cured her for his benefit and Ben thought Jacob did it…?
“-Who was that guy in Sawyer’s flashback? Was he important? He told Sawyer that “what’s done is done”, but that can’t be it.”
His uncle. Read that in a spoiler a few weeks back.
“Who else was surprised when Sawyer said his parents died last year. I don’t know why that affected me.”
Haha, I got butterflies in my stomach for some reason. It was FREAKY hearing that. Glad to see someone else felt the same haha.
“(Remember Meet Joe Black? That was the best part of the movie.)”
Oh god, it was not. That was traumatic, for me. I am a big Pitt fan though haha.
“The big questions is, did Jacob want that to happen? Did he go there to get Nadia killed. (see “Jacob’s List” below)”
Yup. Goes with what I was talking about. Sayid would never think twice about going back or doing anything “unhappy” if Nadia was around.
“I’m still shocked that Frank is still around. How could they kill Daniel and Charlotte and choose to keep Frank?”
Because Frank is freaking awesome 😀
Whoa. That was indeed a long post.
So you weren’t rooting for Juliet and Sawyer? That’s too bad, kinda conveniant now. I wish I dind’t like them together it would make this episode easier to bear.
I wans’t a big fan of Wanted, I think I should check out the graphic novel, it might be better. But the tapestry of fate thing was interesting.
It’s possible that The Island is Esau, but that makes his conversation with Jacob was kinda meaningless. He was argueing that humans bring conflict to the Island, they are the cause of the suffering. If he was The Island then that would mean that he was helping cause a lot of this conflict.
I’m sure that the Cabin is Horace’s not Rose & Bernard’s.
I think you’ve convinced me that Esau was the guy in the Cabin. It confused me when Richard said that Jacob lived in the Foot. But that makes a lot of sense. Ben knew of the Cabin, but he didn’t expect Jacob to be there. Esau surprised them both.
I like what you’ve said about everyone having their beliefs turned on their heads, but I think those things might be less significant or planned than you gave them credit for. I think those things might just be character development. And when the characters finally come to terms with all those realities they will be happy (or dead). Look at Kate, her story arc is almost done, now she just has to choose a man.
Some people are saying that Jacob killed Nadia, I even believed that for a while, now I’m thnking that he didn’t kill Nadia, he just saved Sayid. He chose Sayid and not Nadia.
I don’ fully understand the purpose of Frank, he’s always just along for the ride. I actually ignore him most of the time. When I list all the main characters I’ll put people like Rose or Ilana in there but never Frank.
Sorry.
– izi
Did anyone else see any relevance in the white “LOST” screen at the end of the episode? I can’t remember any episode that had anything other than the black Lost screen. I think this is clearly a sign that next season, things will have changed for everyone that was in the 70’s. And its my bet that Juliet didn’t die… she will be back next year… possibly near the end of the season, so that Sawyer finally gets his happy ending
Clayton, you just saved my sanity. I really hope you’re right about Juliet coming back at the end of next season. That idea gave me chills.
The White LOST screen was very odd. I think that really implies that Jack was right and they actually managed to erase their history. But my mind will not let me accept that. It shows that everything is going to change.
– izi
I like Juliet alot too. Remember, Desmond turned a key…all hell broke loose and he lived…so maybe there is hope.
Hey look at you guys. Thanks for offering me so much hope. I just accepted that she was dead, I hope they bring her back someday.
(Maybe she’ll show up naked in the jungle someday.)
– izi
probably not apparently she’s signed on to another show for next fall. we can always hope for a guest star role though.
very sorry to burst your bubble
I know about V, and I’m thrilled about the show, it’s going to be awesome. All I was hoping for was a guest role.
Here is the meaning of the Tapestry that Jacob was building in the first scene.
http://the-odi.blogspot.com/2009/05/episode-5×1617-greek-translation-on.html
Is it just me, or are the translations always unnecessarily vague.
Thanks for the link.
– izi
Hi, I never commented before but I’ve been reading your recaps since the beginning of the season. Dope site. Anyway I have a theory that the statue fell when Christian told Locke to turn the wheel. Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, et. al. had time flashed to some unspecified time when the statue was still intact. We saw in the finale that the statue was around when Jacob was looking out at the Black Rock. When nameless-black-shirt guy told Jacob he would find a loophole one day and kill him, he knew at that moment Locke was about to turn the wheel, leave the island, die and return to be possessed.
Locke turning the wheel led to the statue’s fall (e.g. Miles’ comment “that last one felt like an earthquake”) as well as the Black Rock landing in the middle of the island. The frozen donkey wheel worked in favor of both Jacob and “Esau” in setting up their pawns in this cosmic, meta game they seem to be playing. Maybe? Either way, this show is bananas.
B.A.N.A.N.A.S. Sorry everyone.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
You’re theory is awesome! Seriously! I’m going to put this onto it’s own Foreign Theories page.
– izi
Thank you! Yeah I just became fixated on the causality of this one event. “The Incident” was a game changer as it reduced a lot of things down to a chess game between Jacob and his nemesis.
Keeping score:
1. Locke turns wheel leads to Locke’s death. 1 point for Esau.
2. The Black Rock arrives on the island with Richard. Score 1 Jacob.
3. The statue, if we assume depicts Taweret, falls apart thus leading to the Others not being able to reproduce. Fewer people on the island. Score for nemesis.
4. Finally, the castaways end up in Dharma time where they eventually cause the Incident by setting off an H-bomb that jettisons them to the present in time for Jacob’s death.
The last two are speculation but in this case, the match is tied between Jacob and Esau or more generally dark and light, good and evil.
I keep thinking of Bergman’s The Seventh Seal where a knight from the crusades plays chess with Death. I wonder if Jacob and Esau have a similar relationship.
That’s awesome.
I thought Jacob did touch Ilana, but with gloves on? On her shoulder?
One interesting fact that Cuse,etc said in “Journey through Time” before the finale was Richard is the only one that is in both timelines…
The black and white inferences are now tying back to the early seasons where they kept finding black and white objects.
I don’t think Adam and Eve are Rose and Bernard. They would have had to go to that cave at some point, and they seemed to like living by the beach…but you never know. Remember Rose said “it sounds familiar” when they heard Smokey in the first season?
Good point about the Cabin was built by Horace ! Hope we get the Cabin answers next year.
What exactly happened to Claire? Was she “taken away” without experiencing death, like Enoch in the Bible?
Ben didn’t honour Jacob like Richard does. He had his own agenda and thought being leader gave him freedom to do whatever he wanted “I changed the rules” he said. So no wonder Jacob didn’t like him anymore, but it was a deep rejection. But now, Ben is the pawn and his world is spinning, and he’s not in control anymore. Will make for an interesting season 6.
How come “Locke” didn’t know Jacob lived in the statue? Does Esau have limitations in terms of knowledge while human form, or was he pretending?
He had to pretend up until the point he actually got to Jacob. He had to use everyone.
I was a little disappointed when they didn’t say that they were living in the cave, but I’m not givng up hope. If I’m right then everyone near the Swan will be thrown back into modern times and Rose & Bernard will be left behind. I think they’re garaunteed to be Adam & Eve if they did get left behind.
I never thought about poor Ben’s feelings after this. He’s going to be so screwed up. He thought he was getting out from under Jacob’s thumb but now he’s under “Locke’s”. Sad.
I don’t understand that business with “Locke” not knowing that Jacob lived in the foot. Bones could be right, he could be faking it, but it was a strangely overt mistake.
– izi
That is a very interesting theory of R&B. I think I understand what you’re saying,Izi, esp knowing that they don’t want to leave the island ever. What a paradox this time travel,loop, is… You die in your past. Very Star Trekkie!
“Whoa. That was indeed a long post.
So you weren’t rooting for Juliet and Sawyer? That’s too bad, kinda conveniant now. I wish I dind’t like them together it would make this episode easier to bear.”
They were nice together and they were a hell of a lot better than disgusting Jate but yeah, I’m still a SKater and “nice” got a bit boring. Still, her two “death” scenes were disturbing and I WAS teary lol.
“I wans’t a big fan of Wanted, I think I should check out the graphic novel, it might be better. But the tapestry of fate thing was interesting.”
I despised that movie lol but that’s what I first thought when I saw him spinning it. I thought maybe HE was fate but I think it’s clear he represents free will.
“It’s possible that The Island is Esau, but that makes his conversation with Jacob was kinda meaningless. He was argueing that humans bring conflict to the Island, they are the cause of the suffering. If he was The Island then that would mean that he was helping cause a lot of this conflict.”
Yeah, I definitely believe that Esau, Jacob and the island are three very separate entities.
“I think you’ve convinced me that Esau was the guy in the Cabin. It confused me when Richard said that Jacob lived in the Foot. But that makes a lot of sense. Ben knew of the Cabin, but he didn’t expect Jacob to be there. Esau surprised them both.”
I never expected Ben to be lying about what happened in the cabin…he put on a VERY convincing show, that’s for sure.
“I like what you’ve said about everyone having their beliefs turned on their heads, but I think those things might be less significant or planned than you gave them credit for. I think those things might just be character development. And when the characters finally come to terms with all those realities they will be happy (or dead). Look at Kate, her story arc is almost done, now she just has to choose a man.”
Yeah, same with Sayid, he just has to die now haha!
Juliet’s flashback was just there to reinforce why she decided to support’s Jack’s plan to erase time. Clearly, she believes that Sawyer and her will never be fully together so long as Kate is there. Once Kate stepped on the sub, Juliete came to the conclusion that the possibility of living happily ever after with Sawyer ended. Going back to the mainland with Kate would be bad. Going back to the island and helping Jack means that her problem is completely wiped out, thus preventing her relationship ending up like her parents…
I’ll save my usual long post for later (we have got 8 months to get through 😛 ) but here are a couple of things I missed first time around that I think may be useful (some credit to these goes to other bloggers, including Vozzek, for jogging my memory):
– When Claire had her freaky dream back in Season 1’s “Raised By Another”, she saw Locke with one black eye and one white eye – http://www.lostisagame.com/photos/510/locke_eye_black_white.jpg (Low quality, but pretty much the only image I can find).
Now, after “The Incident” we all have one thing fresh in our mind – that the overall game of Lost is some kind of bet played out by Jacob and “Easu”. Since the very begginings of Lost, Locke has been impressing upon us this theory – take his Backgammon chatting (for more info – http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Black_and_white).
“LOCKE: Two players. Two sides. One is light … one is dark. Walt, do you want to know a secret? ”
Ignoring the fact we still don’t know what this secret was, we can see that from the very beginning Locke has been planting this thought in our heads that it is all a game – one side good, one side evil. One side Jacob, one side Easu. Locke began as an apprentice of Jacob’s, and now appears to be a tool for Easu’s side.
But all through the series (and I use the “Raised By Another” example as it is one of the first and most obvious), it has also been imprinted on our minds that Locke is a shade of both good and evil, black and white.
My theory is Locke, as a character and not just as Easu’s avatar, still has a lot more of a role to play in this final season. He is black and white. Perhaps he will find a way to regain control of his body and fight back. Perhaps he will find a way to settle this ages-old bet.
Perhaps he will bring balance to the Force? 😛
At any rate – this bloody episode has thrown a spanner in the works of my website. I’m glad I waited until now to start it up, as a lot of my 102 questions need modified now 😀 haha.
– One other thing – as someone pointed out above, Jacob never touched Ilana. My theory coincides with one of the most prominent ones at the moment – that the “rules” are that the “Gods” can never come in physical contact with each other, thus Easu can’t physically kill Jacob, thus Ilana is a “God” also. However, you have to draw paralells between this and the fact that Ben and Whidmore seem unable to kill each other either. Are they “Gods” too, or is that a whole different set of “rules”?
– In addition to the Ilana thing, notice something else about the “flashbacks”? Jacob was in each and every single one of them, save for Juliet’s. Juliet died (or at least, it looks that way). I was kicking myself as soon as the episode finished for missing that. Whether it was intentional or not, it was the first thing I registered when the show faded to white 😀 damnit.
That Backgommon game makes me really want Walt to come back. Which side do you think he would be on. He’d make a scary villain, but I think it would be pretty poetic if he aligned himself against “Locke”.
I hope Locke is gone and we are left with only this new “Locke”. I think Season 6 will be great if Locke is the primary villain. I love a good villain, and “Locke” will make a grear one.
– izi
I have some thoughts about the loophole.
Could it be that due to Ben being “healed” by the island and losing his morality blah blah, that caused him to be the loophole that Esau needed to kill Jacob? I mean why did it have to be Ben in particular who had to kill Jacob? The only difference I see with him compared to other people was the “healing incident”.
I feel that the reason Ben was the one who had to kill Jacob was simply he was the only one with motive (a resentment of father figures/Jacob “ignoring” him), and the only one that ‘Locke’ could really manipulate.
‘Esau’s’ options appear to be limited to the dead.
– Christian means nothing to anyone except Jack and Claire, and do you think either of those two would kill Jacob because their dead-daddy said so?
– Yemi couldn’t even convince Eko to repent, never mind to kill a random person.
– Alex could have manipulated Ben, but I think even Ben would have found it strange his dead-daughter asking him to kill Jacob.
In short, it had to be Locke that he took over and it had to be Ben that he manipulated, as only a combination of those two and their specific histories would result in Ben having a motive and a chance to kill Jacob. It was a one-in-a-million shot, and Esau’s claims that he went through a lot to set that up seem very true.. except when you factor in that Jacob appears to also have been setting up those two.
Esau’s manipulations (assuming he is what we know as “the smoke monster”, which I am 80% sold on):
– ?? Giving Locke the use of his legs ??
– ?? Taking away the use of Locke’s legs at opportune moments ??
– ?? Communicating with Locke as “the Island” ??
– Communicating with Locke via the Smoke Monster.
– Communicating with Ben via the Smoke monster.
– Communicating with Ben via dead Alex.
– Communicating with Locke via dead Christian (turning the wheel part1).
– Communicating with Locke via dead Christian (turning the wheel part2).
– Communicating with Locke via dead Locke/Richard (you have to bring your friends back and die).
– Communicating with Locke via dead Christian (tell my son I said “hi”).
– ?? Pretending to be Jacob in the cabin to intentionally destroy Ben’s ego and further his hatred (and unwanted respect) for Locke ??
– ?? Healing Locke’s gunshot wound ??
– ?? Giving Ben cancer ??
– ?? Healing Ben’s cancer as Locke was near him (fueling the ego/hatred/respect again) ??
– ?? Stopping Jack’s bullet ??
To name but a few.
Jacob’s manipulations:
– Visiting Locke at the time of his “accident”
– ?? Bringing Locke back from the brink of death ??
– ?? Giving Locke the use of his legs ??
– ?? Taking away the use of Locke’s legs at opportune moments ??
– ?? Communicating with Locke as “the Island” ??
– ?? Communicating with Locke as the first ‘monster’ (remember, Locke claimed it was beautiful and bright – a direct contradiction of every other meeting we’ve had with Smokey) ??
– ?? Communcating with Locke in the cabin to intentionally destroy Ben’s ego and further his hatred (and unwanted respect) for Locke ??
– ?? Healing Locke’s gunshot wound ??
– ?? Giving Ben cancer ??
– ?? Healing Ben’s cancer as Locke was near him (fueling the ego/hatred/respect again) ??
– ?? Stopping Jack’s bullet ??
– ?? Ignoring Ben ??
– Asking Ben “What ABOUT you?”
The ??s denote ones that are ambiguous (could be either, could be neither).
Some stuff to chew on – the gist of it is, it HAD to be Ben that killed Jacob (he is the only one who has any hatred of Jacob – everyone else is either oblivious to his existence or a worshipper) and it HAD to be “Locke” that convinced him (Ben has no respect for anyone else, even if he won’t admit his respect of Locke he certainly ‘knows’ Locke is ‘special’ in the eyes of ‘Jacob’). Sure, the stuff with the temple and “never being the same again” could have something to do with it, but as you saw with the whole Alex kidnapping issue, and the Penny shooting issue, Ben still retained some morality.
That’s a great list you’ve got there. Regardless of what happened between Ben and Jacob and the loophole, that list covers almost all the spiritual elements of the show and assigns them to these new characters. That’s great.
I HOPE EVERYONE READ THIS LIST ABOVE! That oughtta get some attention.
– izi
I like the idea of Ben being special because of the Temple/healing thing, but it’s possible that Esau could have used anyone and Ben was the only person who would do it. Think about the people on the Island, there aren’t many killers there who would agree to kill Jacob (where’s Sayid when you need him).
Oooh, actually, that is interesting. If Sayid could remember Jacob’s face, he would also have motivation to kill Jacob (I’m sure someone could convince Sayid that Jacob caused Nadia’s death).
The only problem is, what “ghost” could manipulate Sayid. Danielle perhaps?
Hehe, that would make for a weird “alternative dimension” version of Jacob’s death, wouldn’t it?
Maybe Shannon could tell him to do it. Ugh!
I think Locke could easily have convinced Sayid to do it.
– izi
Perhaps Christian is the Richard to Esau’s Jacob?
I think Jacob was killing Nadia. If he hadn’t stopped Sayid, Nadia wouldn’t have stopped in the road. What’s more, with Nadia alive Sayid would never have come back to the island.
It crossed my mind that Jacob might have been acting as an auditor of reality or time police, as Eloise appeared to be when dealing with Desmond, trying to keep the course of time intact.
Juliet’s flashback seemed a cheap way to set up an emotional barrier in the ‘present’ and justify her sudden change of heart.
What in the hell is New Locke? Esau hasn’t exactly taken over Locke’s body; it still exists separately. And why Locke? Why not someone like Widmore who Richard would trust and know well?
I didn’t hear most of the dialog between Esau and Jacob at the beginning. What was said?
Jacob didn’t kill Nadia, the guy in the car did, maybe Jacob was saving Sayid. It’s how you look at it.
I think Esau chose well when he chose Locke. I think Richard would trust Locke way before he trusted Widmore, Widmore was banished.
You really should download the episode or watch it at abc.com, that first scene was extremely important.
– izi
Oh, and now we know why ‘Locke’ had Richard tell real Locke that he had to die. Pretty crafty. But how did he know where he would be?
“Oh, and now we know why ‘Locke’ had Richard tell real Locke that he had to die. Pretty crafty. But how did he know where he would be?”
He obviously retains the memories of whoever he is inhabiting. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to talk to Ben about when they first met in the hatch.
I actually considered as to whether Ben was sometimes possessed by Esau in the hatch…I doubt it, though.
My thoughts:
* I still think the stautue is Sobek, when I saw it in LaFleur. Although, the other interpretation does tie in the whole fertility thing. Damn, it just may be because not only did Taweret protect the mother and unborn, it protected the dead who were to be reborn. Rats, I’m torn.
* “Dead is dead. There is no coming back.” I don’t think Locke was dead when jacob healed him, he was dying but not yet dead. (dear lord, now I have Monty Python in my head.) I think Jacob healed him again, when he landed on the island the first go around.
I do think Esau inhabits the bodies of dead people. He was Locke and before he was Christian. Not Claire, because I don’t think she is dead. Could that image of the girl behind Sun be Claire? Could Esau be holding her captive?
* Fate vs free will. The two, Esau and Jacob, seem to be locked into that duality. Jacob appears to the cast and tells them they have choices. Esau, while being in the guise of Christian and Locke seem to be telling people what to do and having less to do with free will.
* Did Esau trap Jacob in the cabin? Or was it the other way around? I think it may be the former because Jacob and Ben seemed suprised that Jacob was living in the base of the statue. Or, maybe Easu/Locke was faking surprise to move the action along.
* The loophole. If the two are really Esau and Locke, then they know one cannot kill the other. Maybe they tried and found out they would just come back to life. The loophole would be for a human to willingly kill one of them. I just don’t understand why Jacob would egg on Ben if he knew how unstable Ben was. Maybe Jacob knew and wanted to “die” anyway. Kinda like Jesus be betrayed by Judas.
* Smoke monster. In the episode where we see the lair for the first time, we see depictions in the stone of the smoke monster answering to Anubis. (For Egyptian mythology, power reads from left to right, the stronger is last.) Does Esau control it? That is why Ben can call it because Esau allows it.
* The White Event. The nuke combined with electromagnetic energy unleashes the same power as does the donkey wheel.If a white event in present day sent the six back into the 70s, then this artificial white event should send them back. I don’t think Juliet makes it, though.
* The Dharma van. So when Hurley and Sawyer found the van way back in Season 3, it was full of beer, stuff, and a body. How weird is this? Hurley packed food and beer for the trip into the van only to drink the same beer 30 years later. Oh, and that’s Sayid’s body in the van. Because Jack found a spare janitor uniform belonging to Roger Linus and had Sayid wear it to pose normal.
No no, it’s definitely Roger Linus dead in the van that Hurley and Sawyer find. For one, Sayid was wearing Horus’ jumpsuit. Two, we see Roger loading up the van with beer before Ben kills him. How the van got to the spot they found it I don’t know, maybe Ben was hiding it.
Horace, sorry.
I like your Jacob/Ben Jesus/Judas angle. Works in well with a Jacob=Jesus theory I am writing 🙂
You have a lot of good thoughts. I do not think Claire is dead, or if she is she is possessed by someone other than Esau, as it would appear there cannot be two Esau’s at the one time, considering the following have never been seen at the one time:
Smokey / dead Christian / dead Yemi / dead Alex / dead Locke
However there have been “dead” Claire and dead Christian interactions. So what does that make Claire?
Also, the whole “gods can’t kill each other” angle. Jacob appears to not want to touch Ilana. And Ben and Whidmore appear unable to kill each other. Dead Christian also went out of his way not to touch living Locke. Weird, huh? Yeah “dead” Claire and dead Christian could both touch Aaron?
“I don’t think Locke was dead when jacob healed him, he was dying but not yet dead.”
I think I agree with you there. It seems strange that the writers would make such a big deal about Esau bringing “Locke” back to life (so to speak) and then have Jacob do the same thing.
“For Egyptian mythology, power reads from left to right, the stronger is last”
I didn’t know that. That would make symmetry impossible, wouldn’t it?
When I saw that carving it looked like Anubis was kneeling before Smokey. https://ncjl.wordpress.com/files/2009/04/512-anubis-smokey-carving-01.jpg I dunno, I might have interpreted it wrong.
“I don’t think Juliet makes it, though” It didn’t look like Desmond was going to make it at the end of Season 2. It’s amazing how much hope I suddenly have for Juliet. Immediatly after the finale I had absolutely no hope.
And Bones is right, that wasn’t Sayid in the van.
– izi
I think, if “Smokey” represents Esau and “Anubis” represents Jacob, it would make sense for Esau/Smokey to decorate his home with images of his superiority over Jacob, and for Jacob to decorate his home with a tapestry describing his/god’s power over all.
is there any significance to Hurley having seen the cabin and the man inside?
Hurley and the cabin is a GREAT thing to mention right now.
First, a couple of assumptions. Feel free to disagree with me here:
– The apparition in the cabin that appeared to Locke and Ben was Esau.
– The Christian that appeared to Locke in the cabin was Esau.
– The cabin was never home to Jacob.
– Jacob is searching for an incorruptable human to win his arguement with Esau.
– Esau believes there are no incorruptable humans.
– Esau can take on the form of the dead.
– Hurley is incorruptable.
– Hurley can speak to the dead (in a non-crazy, Miles kind of way).
If we go down this road, and throw Hurley into the equation, we have a few Questions to ponder:
– Could Hurley tell the difference between ‘true’ ghosts and ‘Esau ghosts’ ie could he tell Locke was Esau or would Hurley also just see “Locke”, along with Richard, Ben, Sun, etc.
– Did Hurley see two figures in the cabin (a man on a chair and an eye in the window), or were they both the same?
– If they were two, then who was with Esau?
– Why did Hurley choose to stay with Ben outside of the cabin and let Locke go inside alone? What was Hurley’s purpose in the journey of “Cabin Fever”?
I believe, and sorry if this is a cop-out, that there IS a GREAT significance to Hurley seeing the cabin, but we do not have enough answers to assume WHAT that significance is yet. As you can see above, there are still too many unanswered questions relating to this matter, and we haven’t even began mentioning the following:
– When did Horace build the cabin?
– Why this cabin?
– What of the ring of ash?
– Ilana, Bram, Frank, can all see the cabin too – signifcant?
– Who left the ‘note’ to Ilana (Esau?).
– What are the Walt apparitions? He clearly isn’t dead, so he would seem to not be an Esau apparition, although there could be a theory that Walt died on the plane and has been Esau from the beginning… but then what of his off-Island life? Walt is a huge, HUGE, question mark on the Lost mythos, probably bigger than Hurley.
So you can see… there is no way of saying what the significance is yet. It would be like theorising what was in the Silver Box, or who was in the Coffin, or who was in the Hatch – if we talk about it enough, we might come close to the answer, but we have no obvious clues to go on just yet, I think.
One more note to that effect – who told Ben that the cabin was were Jacob stayed?
Certainly not Richard, if he knew it was the foot. And if he did, then did he always assume that is where Ben was going to get his info? Why would he? Who would Richard assume had showed Ben the statue? Or did Richard show Ben the statue and Ben chose not to believe him, or chose not to show Locke?
Did Esau tell Ben about the cabin? Did he come in the form of Ben’s mother? Did Ben get this knowledge from Smokey-Esau? Or when he was in the Temple? Or from Widmore or Eloise?
So many questions…
Maybe Ben knew/assumed that the Cabin would be empty so he thought that would be a good place to bring Locke.
– izi
“Many are of the consensus that it’s Sobek, the crocodile headed god. From Sledgeweb:
“Sobek is also being mentioned as a candidate on some Lost sites tonight. Sobek doesn’t match the statue completely from behind, but you could argue that his face, that of a crocodile, is very similar to the statue’s face. Anyway, what’s most interesting about Sobek is this:
Sobek’s ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part.”
Actually, in the last episode you get a view of the statue from the side in the background, and it’s Taweret. Which is interesting…. because Taweret’s main purpose was to protect pregnant women….. who die on the island now….. How odd!!
But look at that statue these days, it’s in no position to protect anyone.
That was not alex who told ben to listen to locke, but the Mib in her form.